I Don’t Buy Into the Forbes Definition of a Public Ivy

Published by Stuart Nachbar at May 12, 2024

Forbes used these criteria to rank their schools:

High standardized test scores-as supplied by at least half of all 2022 applicants. The writer considered test scores to be an objective measure of success. I can see that point: the tests are a measure that can be used to compare applicants from the same high school as well as those who attended different high schools.
Acceptance rate. It had to be below 50 percent for a public college to be considered a Public Ivy.

And some bullet points about the importance of testing at the schools on Forbes list.

Florida and Georgia residents must submit ACT or SAT scores for admission. Texas residents will be required to submit scores next cycle.
Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Michigan consider the scores to be an important factor in admissions decisions, according to their 2022-23 Common Data Sets
The other schools, Binghamton, Georgia Tech, UNC-Chapel Hill, UVa. and Wisconsin state that scores are Considered.

Basing the quality of a university on these two criteria is like evaluating a car by the quality of the steel and how the interior and the exterior panels fit together. Yes, you get some idea that a car is a good car, but you have to drive it, then live with it to know for sure. College students who choose a school also need to live with it to know if they have made the right decision. Going further with this analogy, a car is not necessary better because fewer people can afford to buy it. A college is not necessarily better because it turns away a high percentage of all applicants.

An acceptance rate is not a measure of “quality,” it is a measure of demand.

Demand for a seat in the freshman class at a public university is driven in part by price, especially for in-state applicants. It’s also driven by academics and convenience as well as the social life on campus. Demand for seats at the more selective private schools is driven by some perception of achievability. Families see the costs and acceptance rates and become discouraged from applying. But this is not always true for demand for seats at flagship public universities, especially for resident students.

Florida residents, for example, will not be discouraged to apply to the University of Florida because they want to try and the application is easy, no matter the grades and test scores. You don’t need to write anything more than the Common App essay unless you’re interested in the Honors College or the Innovation Academy. The State University of New York system also makes it easy to apply to Binghamton through their application to multiple system schools as well as the Common App.

On the other hand, UT-Austin also made the Forbes list. The Apply Texas application is no picnic through it is accepted by many schools, public and private, in the Lone Star State. Yet it does not discourage Texans from applying to the flagship, even if admission to another system campus is more likely. Other schools on the Forbes list have additional short answer questions or essays including Georgia Tech, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, University of Maryland-College Park, University of Michigan, UNC Chapel Hill, UVa and the University of Wisconsin-Madison. These requests do not discourage prospective students and their families, especially those from in state. In fact, they are more likely to apply early because these schools have Early Action deadlines.

Forbes’ criteria say nothing about student success, or the quality of the school’s career services.

However, their story mentions that employers have expressed more interest at recruiting at these schools. That’s fine, but employers have not become less interested in other public universities that have always been fertile grounds for finding talent. Nor do they consider the costs of the school for all students, residents, and non-residents. Out-of-state charges at the University of Michigan and the University of Virginia are about the same as the more selective private research universities.

So, what are some better measures of a Public Ivy, given the population that gives more consideration to public colleges?

Freshman retention at a Public Ivy should be no lower than 90 percent.

One great characteristic of the private Ivies as well as Ivy-like schools is that virtually everyone who gets in stays in. The same should be true for a Public Ivy. The resources dedicated to academic advising, honors-level instruction, and career development are much better than they were four decades ago. Every school on the Forbes list met this criteria.

Seventy percent or more of a freshman class at a Public Ivy should graduate within four years.

Another great characteristic of Ivy League and Ivy-like/near-Ivy schools is that most of their students graduate on time. The same should be true of a Public Ivy. There are some exceptions. Early entry into an advanced degree program is one, so is cooperative education, aka ‘co-op’. Co-op is not available at Ivy League schools as well as every New Ivy on Forbes’ list, excluding Carnegie Mellon. Co-op students alternate between classroom instruction and full-time work experience for as much as three years. One school on Forbes’ Public Ivy list, Georgia Tech, has a very large co-op program. When I considered co-op, every school on the Forbes’list met this criteria.

A Public Ivy should cost significantly less than private universities for every student.

This is my view regardless of a family’s ability to pay or whether they hail from in-state or elsewhere. The estimated total cost of attendance should be less than the least expensive Ivy charges for tuition and fees alone. This year Harvard charges about $59,300. The other Ivies charge between $59,600 (Princeton) and $69,000 (Columbia). Most of the schools on the Forbes list did not meet this criteria.

Which schools on Forbes’ list met all three of my criteria for a Public Ivy?

When costs are a factor, these were the only schools where Forbes and I had agreement:

Binghamton University
Georgia Tech
University of Florida

Ok, I’m being a little picky. The University of Maryland-College Park missed my cost mark by $300 for a non-resident. The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign missed because of the non-resident tuition and fees for the engineering school. But if an Ivy League school, and other private “New Ivies” try their hardest to be affordable to as many students as possible, then so should a Public Ivy. Forbes listed some excellent public institutions that do well by their students. However, others are conspicuously missing when cost becomes a consideration for residents and non-residents alike.

What are some of the schools that are missing?

Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
Florida State University
Indiana University-Bloomington
Miami University-Ohio
Rutgers University-New Brunswick
The College of New Jersey
University of Delaware
University of Georgia
University of Minnesota-Twin Cities

Among these nine schools:

Miami considers test scores to be Very Important, and just over half of enrolled students submitted an ACT score.
Florida State and Georgia are test-mandatory and consider the scores to be Important in evaluating applicants.
Indiana and UDel consider the scores to be Important
Cal Poly San Luis Obispo is test-free. I included the school because it places a major emphasis on co-op, just like Georgia Tech.
The remaining schools mention that scores are Considered.

Why Florida but not Rutgers? One example to ponder.

The University of Florida, the flagship in a test-mandatory state, had the lowest average SAT score (1370) of the schools on Forbes’ list. That also happens to be the midpoint for Rutgers-New Brunswick, according to their 2022-23 Common Data Set. Half of the incoming students in Rutgers Class of 2026 submitted test scores, according to their data set. This was a minimum criteria for Forbes. Yet when I compared these two schools using my US News College Compass, I found the following:

Number of Undergraduate Students: Florida 34,552, Rutgers 36,344
Average Alumni Starting Salary: Florida $45,803, Rutgers $49,190
Four-Year Grad Rate: Florida 72%, Rutgers 70%
Student-Faculty Ratio: Florida 16 to 1, Rutgers 15 to 1
Acceptance Rate: Florida 23%, Rutgers 66%

The major difference between Florida and Rutgers is the acceptance rate.

The Rutgers graduate in the same major might earn more money at the start if they graduate into a more expensive labor market. However, a Florida grad might land in a place where it is less expensive to get on with life after college, even purchase a home and pay down debts. Florida charges much less to resident students and the Sunshine State has more ambitious merit and need-based scholarship programs than New Jersey. Residents of the Sunshine State also have other public options if they want to stay home.

Why Florida but not Florida State?

I thought this would be an interesting comparison, since both are test-mandatory flagship schools in the same state with many of the same majors.

Number of Undergraduate Students: Florida 34,552, Florida State, 32,936
Average Alumni Starting Salary: Florida $45,803, Florida State, $44,000
Four-Year Grad Rate: Florida 72%, Florida State 74%
Student-Faculty Ratio: Florida 16 to 1, Florida State 17 to 1
Acceptance Rate: Florida 23%, Florida State 26%

I could not see why Florida made the Forbes list, but Florida State did not. It seems that Florida State would be no less deserving of being considered a Public Ivy. Yet, it’s a more selective school than some of the Forbes Public Ivies.

If Forbes wants to consider test scores and acceptance rates to be important criteria for a Public Ivy, that’s their business.

If flagships were rated on value for residents who can get in then Binghamton, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and UNC-Chapel Hill would via to be considered as the best. .The magazine has only proved what I have stated many times: a ranking is based on whatever the ranker decides to rank.

Buy my new book, The Good College!

Listen to my latest interview on ‘Tests and the Rest’ with Amy Seeley and Mike Bergin!

Check out my talk, What Exactly Is a Good College? hosted by test-prep experts Amy Seeley and Mike Bergin on Tests And The Rest!

Listen to my talk, College Is A Learning AND Living Community hosted by Dr. Cynthia Colon from Destination YOUniversity on Voice of America Radio!